Chapter 1: The Outlaw Ocean

In his remarkable work, Outlaw Ocean founder and New Yorker journalist Ian Urbina delves into the grim realities of illegal fishing, human trafficking at sea, and how unethical seafood finds its way onto our plates.

For nearly a decade, Urbina has reported on one of the world's most enigmatic and perilous regions: the vast stretches of ocean that lie outside the jurisdiction of individual nations. Commonly referred to as "The High Seas," these waters are far from desolate. They are rich in marine biodiversity and serve as a backdrop for a range of illicit activities, including modern slavery, illegal oil dumping, unauthorized whaling, and illegal, unreported, and unregulated (IUU) fishing.

Urbina initially began uncovering the secrets of this hidden world in a series for the New York Times, aptly titled "The Outlaw Ocean." He has since expanded his efforts through a book and the establishment of a nonprofit organization bearing the same name. The Outlaw Ocean Project continues to push the boundaries of investigative journalism, and this month, The New Yorker published his latest exploration—a disturbing look into China's expansive offshore fishing operations.

Paul Greenberg: First off, congratulations on such a meticulously researched and challenging article.

Ian Urbina: Thank you.

PG: How long did the investigation take?

IU: It took just over four years.

PG: Did you anticipate such a lengthy process when you started?

IU: I didn't think it would take that long, but I was aware that the complexities surrounding China would pose significant challenges. The investigation comprised two main components: Crimes on Land and Crimes at Sea. The land aspect, focusing on forced labor in Chinese processing facilities and tracing the supply chain from problematic fishing vessels to the brands utilizing forced labor, was time-consuming. Gaining access to Chinese ships at sea to speak with workers also required substantial effort.

"We tossed messages in bottles to the crews, who then replied with their own bottled messages."

PG: I can only imagine. Additionally, working with The New Yorker, which is known for its rigorous fact-checking, must have added to the difficulty.

IU: Yes and no. We have collaborated with The New Yorker for three years and have published several pieces together. Throughout our investigations, we maintain a fact-checked version of our reporting, so whether we publish with them or elsewhere, we are prepared with that level of scrutiny.

PG: Understood. Now, let's discuss your findings. You uncovered a massive fleet of Chinese vessels fishing, frequently in violation of regulations, harvesting over 5 billion pounds of seafood annually. What damage does this fishing inflict on the ocean? Can its impact be quantified globally, or is it only measurable on a case-by-case basis?

IU: Our emphasis was less on quantifying the damage—though it is undoubtedly substantial. Our aim was to highlight the scope and severity of criminal activities within this fleet. A significant part of our focus was on vessels involved in IUU fishing, particularly in other nations' waters. We documented incidents and identified the extent of abuse faced by crew members, as well as the forced labor occurring in processing facilities on land, and the complicity of global buyers.

PG: The issue of forced labor in international fishing fleets is one you've explored before. Is the distinction here that you concentrated specifically on Chinese operations? What surprised you most about this story?

IU: The focus on China was indeed new, justified by their status as the largest distant-water fishing fleet, making them a dominant force in the global seafood market. What surprised me most was the pervasive issue of forced labor linked to the Xinjiang/Uyghur and North Korean populations, which infiltrates the seafood supply chain. We found numerous processing plants and global companies tied to this network.

PG: That was shocking to hear. You mentioned earlier that reporting on these issues in China is particularly challenging. Can you share how you managed to navigate this landscape?

IU: This video sort of shows and explains it. Our at-sea efforts involved visiting various ocean locations and negotiating access to vessels, as well as communicating through bridge-to-bridge radio or tossing messages in bottles to crew members.

PG: Incredible.

IU: For the land-based investigations, my team sifted through thousands of hours of open-source video, typically from platforms similar to TikTok, along with company newsletters and state media, and hired investigators in China to track trucks and film processing plants. The methodology we used for open-source intelligence is detailed on our page.

PG: I'm surprised you can hire private investigators in China. Is there a local equivalent to private detectives?

IU: I can't disclose too much about our collaborators in China, but there are indeed various methods to accomplish our goals, and we ensured that all surveillance conducted was lawful. I must keep details sparse to protect those involved, as they could face significant risks.

PG: I suppose we'll have to wait for a fictionalized account of these unseen figures. Moving on, as you cover ocean-related issues over time, it's common for reporters to experience fatigue. Yet, you've remained committed to this subject. What drives your continued focus?

IU: The diversity of stories keeps it engaging; it doesn't feel monotonous. The last investigation published in The New Yorker was about migrant abuse at sea and on land in Libya—quite distinct from this piece on China. It’s a vast area, both geographically and topically, encompassing various issues like IUU fishing, oil dumping, and human trafficking.

PG: However, these issues often place you in dangerous situations. Do you feel concerned about the risks to you or your team?

IU: The reporting at sea can certainly be perilous, and yes, it is a significant consideration. You only need to look at the situation in Libya to understand the risks. Most of my team focuses on land-based investigations, and while I travel with small teams at sea, the danger is real. However, I like to emphasize that the risks are much greater for the individuals I report on; I can leave, but they are often trapped in their circumstances.

PG: That’s true. Many people simply want to ensure that their everyday actions, such as grocery shopping or dining, do not contribute to harm. Certification schemes exist to provide that assurance. However, your article revealed how stealthily much of our seafood is traded, leading to a sense of despair. Is there a reliable way to ensure we are not complicit in these serious crimes when consuming seafood?

IU: There are indeed significant concerns regarding audit systems and certification programs like the Marine Stewardship Council (MSC). One major issue is that these programs typically do not address labor conditions on vessels; their focus is primarily on marine health, which has its own set of challenges. During our reporting, we attempted to engage with these organizations but received minimal cooperation regarding potential improvements.

PG: That’s intriguing.

IU: Not all is bleak, though. Some stakeholders have proposed innovative ideas that we continuously update. You can find a collection of these potential solutions.

PG: Now that this extensive reporting is published and gaining traction, have you received any feedback from key players, especially in China? Is the article being translated for local audiences?

IU: Yes, the reporting—it's a series of articles—is being published in over three dozen countries and translated into twelve languages, including Japanese, Chinese, Uyghur, and Korean. It has reached China, and there has been some backlash from the Chinese government, which has labeled the stories as "fabricated," to use their term. We track both positive and negative reactions on our Impact page.

PG: The resources you provide make this reporting feel larger than a typical article. The graphics also enhance its impact. In my book American Catch, I explored how much of our seafood comes from abroad, and I felt there was a significant unknown element. I genuinely appreciate your efforts to unveil it.

IU: Thank you, Paul. I highly value the guidance and research support you have provided me over the years. Your insightful writings have greatly influenced my work.

PG: Thank you, Ian, for this enlightening discussion. In these post-COVID times, when people say "stay safe," I often think, "Leave that for Ian Urbina." Take care, and keep uncovering these crucial stories.

IU: Keep calling me, and we can continue to dig into these matters.

PG: It's a deal. Thank you.

I encourage you to follow Ian's work at www.theoutlawocean.com. For non-English speakers, different versions of Outlaw Ocean's reporting are also available in Cantonese, Uyghur, Dutch, Finnish, French, German, Portuguese, and Spanish.

Chapter 2: Investigating China's High Seas

This segment delves into the implications of China's vast offshore fishing operations and the ethical concerns surrounding them.

The first video, "High Stakes on the High Seas: The South China Sea under President Biden," explores geopolitical tensions and illegal activities in these waters, providing context for Urbina's findings.

The second video, "China and the Future of the High Seas: Searching for Sustainability," discusses sustainable practices and the future of China's maritime activities, complementing the themes of illegal fishing and labor abuses highlighted in the article.